The Blindfold

I was talking to my mom again today (the southern baptist) and I was talking about how Jesus seems to be taken from the story of Horus. And she asked why it's so important for me to convert her to athiest and destroy her beliefs.
Well, I told her it's not necessarily about converting her as much as it's about seeing how much direct evidence she's willing to completely ignore. It seems that no matter what evidence comes to light and what proof you can offer, xtians are going to remain xtians no matter what.

Personally, I really can't comprehend that at all. Absolutely everywhere else people will change their minds if their wrong and it's ok. But in religion there's no way to change. Oh sure, you may get discouraged with one religion and switch, but you're still sticking with the program.
Seriously though... what the fuck does it take? How much evidence does it really take to make these assholes look up and say, wait, there can't be a god or jesus was a fake.

Along those same lines we were talking the other day about religion in this country, and this may be combining topics too much, and I was saying that we have all the freedom of religion here we could ever want. But what we don't have is freedom to NOT religion. This goes directly into my post from the other day and I really believe it. While the law officially protects us, public opinion doesn't and protecting the godless doesn't seem to be much of a priority. It's one of those laws that just gets overlooked when applied to athiests. You know, kinda like the separation of church and state gets overlooked when they pray at senate meetings or swear the president in on a bible. Or when the military refuses to promote someone to general because he's athiest, or someone can't get elected to public office because he doesn't pass the imaginary friend litmus. It's bullshit and there's nothing we can do about it. We're the new gays. I talked about this when we first started this blog. The reason we haven't put our names up here is because we're all professional people and we can't afford to have our careers effected. I've both heard stories and known a couple people who had problems in our professional community, and trouble finding jobs even. I even had someone tell me exactly of his trouble and advised me to never let out my religious beliefs unless I was ready to say I'm a specific religion.

So being godless in this country is strictly taboo. So what the fuck ever guys. If I ever start my own company or make my millions I'll proudly put my name up here and all those xtian fucks can suck my dick.

So anyway, that's all I've got now.

And until next time...
Big dildo up your ass.

Topical Scientology

I rarely read Fark any more, but I hopped on today and got this article, which is part 5 of a series I haven't read. The interviewer is asking a Scientologist about secret Scientology stuff, and a couple of his answers completely floored me...not because I'm surprised a Scientologist said it, but because it's a repeat of some of today's fun:

For you to talk to me, you as somebody who is not a Scientologist to talk to me about what my beliefs are or to ask me to explain any core religious belief, that's an offensive concept. Nobody should ever be asked to do that.

I was going to post quotes from the debate that mirror this, but I lost steam. Just trust me...this is a theme that comes up with Scientology nutcases AND everyday Christians near you.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself, asshole

So of course, the Facebook religion debates have degenerated, at least in one sector, into namecalling, hurt feelings, and a persecution complex. There's a lot I could talk about - I could give you specifics, I could rant about any of a number of things that came up in the course of the discussions and the post-game metadiscussion bitching...but there's one thing, ONE THING that bugs the shit out of me more than anything else. It's what still keeps cropping up in my head, long after all the "BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" has quieted down, and it is this:

Why is it so acceptable for the atheist to discriminate against the christian? Something to ponder. There is so much prejudice against christians...hmmmm

Now, this isn't limited strictly to Christians. I've heard many the member of a majority group pull out the old Oh Woe Is Me, WHY is MY GROUP the only one that it's okay to persecute in America today?

Fuck. You.
Fuck. You.
Fuck you.
Fuckyou.
Fukyu.

I'm serious...this has to be one of the most offensive things anyone has ever said within a 15 mile radius of me. And again, it's not just the Atheist/Christian dynamic here. It's men: "Oh sure, make fun of men. You can't pick on any other group, but go ahead and pick on the men." And white people. And, god, what else have I heard? There've been more, but it's always the people in the OMFG THERE ARE SO MANY OF YOU majority, whining and getting sand in their little vaginas.

And as much as I want to pull the Atheist card - it IS hard to come out of the closet, we do have to fear for violence and retribution and problems in our careers - even that really doesn't compare to other minority groups, even today. Talk to black people. Mexicans. Nearly anyone from a "brown people" country. Mixed race couples. Anybody gay.

Fucking seriously, you're going to pull the persecuted Christian shit on me? Let's talk when you can't wear the cross around your neck for fear of a beating. When every fucking piece of legislation that's pushed in an 8 year period takes away your rights, your funding, your education. Let's talk when kids in school are regularly beaten and sometimes killed for being Christian. Let's talk when your husband can't get a job because he let it slip on MySpace that he loves Jesus.

In short, fuck you.

---

This persecution complex, by the way, came about because I had a great in-person religious discussion with a couple of friends, and we agreed we should continue online. Then we did, along with several other people, and one friend got VERY upset because (suprise!) I don't agree with or comprehend her religion, and expressed why in a series of online discusions. While I was very calm, fair, and rational in those discussions (and the postgame), I come here to rant and blow off steam. *MOTHERFUCKING SIGH*

The Bigot Manifesto

I'm always torn when I go to write posts like this because I have a lot to say, but I don't want to publish a novel and make you guys read it. So I'm stuck between being too brief to be interesting and witty and being too windy for the internet. I'll try to strike a happy medium.

This isn't necessarily a pure athiest topic, but it definitely has roots in the differences between religion and secular behavior.

What I'm talking about is how we view foreigners. It's very interesting that here in America anyone who comes from another country and is a lot browner than we are is instantly objectified into some kind of animal. Just look at how most of us view anyone from the middle east. They're either terrorists or animals who deserve anything they get. This is reflected by our government as well as many Americans. We don't trust them, and we have little to no sympathy for anything that happens to them because they bring it on themselves.

Faithinate and I were talking about that just this morning. We really don't see these people as human a lot of times. They get pidgeon-holed into these stereotypes and we really don't even care to look any further.
At the end of our conversation she asked what it would take for this attitude to change. I thought for a few seconds and I remembered something that happened to me at a conference in Seattle just a couple weeks ago.

I was with a whole group of my friends when a guy came up that I had never met before. A couple guys in the group knew him and said hi so he was at least known by someone there. I'll tell you though that I looked at him and made some instant judgements about him. His name was Mohamed (or something close to that, don't remember exactly to be honest) and he had that long scraggly beard with no mustache that a lot of the really religious middle-easterners wear. He had on one of those little hats too. Not the yamaka, but the other one that you always see these religious nuts wearing on CNN. And frankly, he just looked like one of those assholes who does nothing but preach about how all Americans are going to die unless we turn our lives over to Islam, etc.

Well, someone was telling a story and it took a couple mins for it to end and when it was over someone looked at Mohamed and said, so what's up man, how's it going?
This is when I expected a terse answer that was just barely polite, but instead I got a huge surprise. Mohamed said something similar to... hey man, things are just fucked up at work, and I almost couldn't come because my daughter has the flu, etc... after all this time I can't believe how surprised I was to find out he was just a normal guy like me.

So this is where I get back to the story with Faithinate. The way to change the perceptions that all brownies aren't real people and that they deserve whatever they get is to have normal interaction with them. Get to know them. Learn what they think. They want their kids to be safe just like we do. They want to make money, play with their kids, save for retirement, and have a good dinner just like we do. They're not the enemy. And they don't deserve what's happening to them a lot of times over there. So the answer is as it always is... get to know them. And the only thing that's going to make that possible right now is immigration. The more they immigrate here the more we'll interact with them and the more we'll come to see them as people and not just objects who are all bent on killing us.

Unfortunately though it's just not that easy. There's a lot of dogma in those middle eastern countries that makes these people who they are. Yes, they're just like us in that their lives and the lives of their families are just as important to them as ours is to us. That's actually what's meant by 'all men are created equal'... not that we're all on the same level physically or mentally, etc. Anyway though, that was a useless digression. But there are some major differences in our dogma. They choose to follow a religion that's filled with violence and has lead that part of the world to be one of the most intolerant in history. Their religion doesn't tolerate outsiders and they take offense at absolutely everything. So the cultures are so different it's really difficult to really identify with them as people. Even though you can get to know them and may be even like them to a degree, there's really a lot to get past before you could ever really be close close friends with someone that different culturally.

A few years ago I worked with another guy from the middle east whom I liked very much. I actually got to know him pretty well throughout the months we worked together and I considered him a friend. His sister also worked with us and she was smart and pretty. I liked her pretty well too and actually would've dated her given the chance. Then one day it happened. You know what I mean, that one thing that happens to show you what someone's really like. His sister accepted a date with an American guy she had been talking to for a few weeks. Her brother forbid her to go on the date and was ordered to go home on the spot and wait for him. I didn't see her for a couple more days and when I did I noticed she wouldn't make eye contact with anyone. She was timid and quiet. I asked my friend what had happened and he proudly told me that he had to remind her who she was and that she doesn't do anything without asking him first. Seriously dude, this is a real deal killer for me. I can't be friends with anyone who treats women like that. And what's worse is MOST middle eastern men treat their women like property.

So it's really not as easy as I made it sound in the beginning. In theory it is, but in practice, there's a lot to overcome because culturally there's a big difference between us. And of course, it's their dogma that makes them treat women the way they do. I don't understand why any woman would ever want to belong to any religion because none of them treat women like people... but that's another post.

And this is largely the fault of the media. You almost never hear about anyone from the middle east who isn't trying to kill us. I don't think I've ever seen anything on TV that shows them as peace-loving, honest, humble, normal people. They're always blood-thirsty animals out to destroy us in our homes (ala Bush). Sometimes you see Arabic rights groups talking about how they're just the same as we are, and that Arabic women enjoy sex and have a free sexuality a lot the same as we do, but you never actually see that. You never see women in the middle east in any other position other than being completely covered up and treated like fucking pets. So it's easy to say Arabic women have these qualities, but it's never shown to us by the media. That's probably because it doesn't suit their purpose of creating animosity so we can keep a war going. There's nothing the media has to gain by showing us how we're alike enough to get along. They need us to be as different as possible.

So let's try to look past some of these cultural stereotypes that are pushed on us by the media and start getting to know these guys as people. Because they are.

Unpolished rant: The Bible is not Clear

Understanding what God wants from you shouldn't be that difficult. People like to say that God is the parent and we're the children, so let's go with that. I try to make it VERy clear to my kids what the rules are; what's okay, and what's not so okay, what's praiseworthy and what's absolutely forbidden.

Of course I give my kids leeway; have some freedom, even have the opportunity to screw up. But I don't let them damage themselves or others. I stop them before they run out in front of cars, before they pour boiling water on themselves.

This God I grew up with, He's fine with His children maiming, raping, and killing each other. He only makes a few of the rules clear, and those aren't all of the important ones (so "honor your parents" made the 10 commandments cut, but "don't hurt children" didn't? How about "don't rape"? "Don't betray"?) We're left with huge debates on whether being gay is a sin (Leviticus says yes, the 21st century says no), whether divorce and contraception and premarital sex are wrong, on and on.

And there's a key difference here. If we're really His children, and therefore too stupid (immature, not godly, whatever) to know the mind of God, then why do we get to CHOOSE whether to BE His children? My kids aren't allowed to say YOU'RE not my MOM...

Clarity

The gentle slope from "superChristian" to agnostic to considering paganism to here, at atheism, has for me been an incremental journey of clarification. Again and again, I've had these large and small "Oh, I SEE!" moments. One of the most significant of those moments came some months back when SJ, PraiseNull and I all realized that we were capital-A Atheists. Reading Dawkins (and other authors) and watching his lectures have provided many more OHISEE! moments. And now, we have these conversations I've started up on Facebook.

We never reach a consensus, of course, but as always, typing out my thoughts helps me see what I really think much better. So here are a few things I've solidified in my online talks:

- I think that morality is a natural result of evolution and society; it's easy enough to see that, over time, people must have begun to disapprove of things that they didn't want done to themselves and their kin. The more we all agree not to kill and steal and rape each other, the happier we'll all be.

- I think there are degrees of Christianity, and I tend to dislike people who are less conservative (the Bible is the inerrant word of God, all that stuff actually happened, the Earth is 6,000 years old) and tend to be friends with the more liberal (much of the OT is irrelevant, evolution yah, yay hippie Jesus).

- I have a really hard time ditching my preconceived notion that Atheists are, generally speaking, better educated and more intelligent than religious types.

- I realize that being Atheist doesn't necessarily mean you actually share the same beliefs; it only guarantees that you share one specific disbelief. So I make sure to tell people I debate that I do NOT speak for all Atheists.

- I should probably start calling myself an Atheist-Humanist.

- We watched Religulous last night, and it was better than I'd hoped. It double-solidified this feeling I've had that I can't be a closet Atheist, that I have to talk to people about it.

- I believe that irrationality shouldn't be a virtue; it leads to all kinds of problems. I find it strange that I have to say that, and explain to people why.

That's good for starters...

"Irreverently" Denying Jesus?

Word usage can be entertaining. I was just following some link chains starting with the blogs linked from here and wound up at Jesus Christ: In the Name of the Gun" which is a web comic I've seen before. What caught my eye was an ad for "The God Who Wasn't There".

The ad quotes a Newsweek review: "Irreverently lays out the case that Jesus Christ never existed." I am curious: is it possible to deny the existence of Jesus Christ with reverence? Please type for me how that would look.

"With all due respect, your religion is bunk." Nah, it's not quite working. Certainly anyone who believes in Christ would find the argument against irreverent, but even from the side of atheism is it possible to present the argument in a "reverent" manner?