Christians Are Arfraid of Atheists

I did an internet search to see if others had already begun atheist, rational or critical testimony, but all I can find are "ex-atheist" and other conversion testimonies. For some reason this congealed a thought that has been vaguely in my head for a long time: Christians are afraid of atheists. I suppose this should have been obvious, but it hadn't really occurred to me on such basic terms.

It would explain why they react so strongly to atheists. If testimony, faith and coercion are the only tools you have to attract people to and keep them in your religion, then someone using critical thinking to challenge your faith and beliefs must be terrifying.

Perhaps that is why testimony of atheists returning to religion seem to be so popular among Christians.

By the way, the closest thing I found to atheist / rational testimony in my searches so far is this video of Ricky Gervais. It is in the spirit of my rational testimony idea.

Christian Dating

I was just browsing the forums attached to a dating website. To my amazement a couple of christians lamented that they can't find other christians to date. Seriously? I can't swing a cat without hitting three single christians who won't shut up about Jesus or God. Anyway, somebody replied to one of the forlorn christians: "Yep, God will scare you up a piece of ass. Have faith."

Jesus says: Women Suck!

Ever notice how the most highly respected Christian women are subservient to their men?

There's this guy on the Daily Show* talking about an xtian cult he joined (to see what it's like), and how he didn't help in the kitchen, they actually had a group of women assigned to do that...that the men's job was to follow Jesus, and the women's job was to follow their men. It struck me that the further into traditional Christianity you get, the more you get into those roles.

He just said the New Testament is about power, by the way. I think I can agree with that.

*"The Guy" is Jeff Sharlet, author of "The Family: The Secret Fundamentalism at the Heart of American Power"

Marriage = MY FUCKING BUSINESS

I have a new job, and I have a new favorite place to park at my building. Two days out of the last three, this big, bumper sticker-plastered truck has been in the space next to mine. Every time I see it, I have to fight the very sudden, violent, and real urge to key the fucking thing, because of this one particular sticker.

[Sorry, I'd've posted the pic directly, but I'm apparently dumber than Blogger.com.)

It's clearly one of those fucking holier than thou "sanctity of marriage" movements. I did a search so I could include the image, and found out exactly which movement: CBN's.

PROTECT THE SANCTITY OF MARRIAGE
Let your voice be heard.
Request your free bumper sticker!

We the people proclaim that marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman! Please support the Federal Marriage Amendment (H.J. Res. 56):

Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution or the constitution of any State, nor state or federal law, shall be construed to require that marital status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups.

CBN is proclaiming God's truth and love to America! Please join with us.

■Pray that God will protect His divine plan for marriage and the family.


■Act by contacting your senators, representatives and state legislators. Call the Capitol switchboard at (202) 224-3121 or log on to http://congress.org to contact your state and federal legislators by e-mail.


■Share with your family and friends. It is vital to let our voices be heard now -- before the Supreme Court has a chance to make same-sex unions the irrevocable law of the land.

First, why this makes me violently mad: I can't fucking stand when people cheerfully, and with a great sense of community and purpose, fuck other people over. The smug fucking assholes haven't walked a single step in gay man or woman's shoes, but they'll happily say they're not real people and shouldn't have real rights. Hey, maybe they're 3/5ths of a person, right?

Next, let's pick this apart a bit. "We the people " oh don't go all Declaration of Independence on us so you can pretend to be opressed, noble, and intelligent. "We fucking holier-than-thou Christians" would be way more accurate. Okay, moving on.

"We [fucking holier-than-thou Christians] proclaim that marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman!" I'm going to skip right over "sacred" so I can move on to this: "Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a woman. Neither this Constitution or the constitution of any State, nor state or federal law, shall be construed to require that marital status or the legal incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups." To turn that into Normalspeak, "No law should be understood to mean that 'marriage' has to include fags."

Okay, so marriage is sacred penis-and-vagina territory, and laws should enforce that. So this should be a nation of Christian laws. Oh yeah, THAT'D be just swell.

How many times, and how many different ways, do we have to ask, please, beg, scream, WHY DOES IT FUCKING MATTER TO YOU FUCKS??!? What do you CARE if I peg my husband in the ass, or if my best guy friend likes cock? He's not after YOUR cock! YOU'RE too homophobic, uptight, stupid and unattractive?

Personal attacks? Oh yeah, I'm all about the personal attacks. You started it, asswipes. Your cute little Man + Woman sticker could easily - and more honestly - look like this:




Edit: I'm SO happy. I was already happy about this post (man, that was cathartic), then I went looking on cafepress.com for marriage related bumper stickers. My absolute favorite is the FOCUS ON YOUR OWN DAMN FAMILY one. I gots ta buy it, I just GOTS to.

Stop feeling sorry for yourself, asshole

So of course, the Facebook religion debates have degenerated, at least in one sector, into namecalling, hurt feelings, and a persecution complex. There's a lot I could talk about - I could give you specifics, I could rant about any of a number of things that came up in the course of the discussions and the post-game metadiscussion bitching...but there's one thing, ONE THING that bugs the shit out of me more than anything else. It's what still keeps cropping up in my head, long after all the "BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH" has quieted down, and it is this:

Why is it so acceptable for the atheist to discriminate against the christian? Something to ponder. There is so much prejudice against christians...hmmmm

Now, this isn't limited strictly to Christians. I've heard many the member of a majority group pull out the old Oh Woe Is Me, WHY is MY GROUP the only one that it's okay to persecute in America today?

Fuck. You.
Fuck. You.
Fuck you.
Fuckyou.
Fukyu.

I'm serious...this has to be one of the most offensive things anyone has ever said within a 15 mile radius of me. And again, it's not just the Atheist/Christian dynamic here. It's men: "Oh sure, make fun of men. You can't pick on any other group, but go ahead and pick on the men." And white people. And, god, what else have I heard? There've been more, but it's always the people in the OMFG THERE ARE SO MANY OF YOU majority, whining and getting sand in their little vaginas.

And as much as I want to pull the Atheist card - it IS hard to come out of the closet, we do have to fear for violence and retribution and problems in our careers - even that really doesn't compare to other minority groups, even today. Talk to black people. Mexicans. Nearly anyone from a "brown people" country. Mixed race couples. Anybody gay.

Fucking seriously, you're going to pull the persecuted Christian shit on me? Let's talk when you can't wear the cross around your neck for fear of a beating. When every fucking piece of legislation that's pushed in an 8 year period takes away your rights, your funding, your education. Let's talk when kids in school are regularly beaten and sometimes killed for being Christian. Let's talk when your husband can't get a job because he let it slip on MySpace that he loves Jesus.

In short, fuck you.

---

This persecution complex, by the way, came about because I had a great in-person religious discussion with a couple of friends, and we agreed we should continue online. Then we did, along with several other people, and one friend got VERY upset because (suprise!) I don't agree with or comprehend her religion, and expressed why in a series of online discusions. While I was very calm, fair, and rational in those discussions (and the postgame), I come here to rant and blow off steam. *MOTHERFUCKING SIGH*

Debates with Christians - If there is no God?

This is the second big debate thread I've had online (actually a friend started it). I thought I'd post it here for funsies.


If there is no God?
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Andrea
After a discussion I was having the other night a friend sent me this article by Dennis Prager...
Good reading.


We are constantly reminded about the destructive consequences of religion -- intolerance, hatred, division, inquisitions, persecutions of "heretics," holy wars. Though far from the whole story, they are, nevertheless, true. There have been many awful consequences of religion.

What one almost never hears described are the deleterious consequences of secularism -- the terrible developments that have accompanied the breakdown of traditional religion and belief in God. For every thousand students who learn about the Spanish Inquisition and the Salem Witch Trials, maybe two learn to associate Gulag, Auschwitz, The Cultural Revolution and the Cambodian genocide with secular regimes and ideologies.

For all the problems associated with belief in God, the death of God leads to far more of them.

So, while it is not possible to prove (or disprove) God's existence, what is provable is what happens when people stop believing in God.

1. Without God there is no good and evil; there are only subjective opinions that we then label "good" and "evil." This does not mean that an atheist cannot be a good person. Nor does it mean that all those who believe in God are good; there are good atheists and there are bad believers in God. It simply means that unless there is a moral authority that transcends humans from which emanates an objective right and wrong, "right" and "wrong" no more objectively exist than do "beautiful" and "ugly."

2. Without God, there is no objective meaning to life. We are all merely random creations of natural selection whose existence has no more intrinsic purpose or meaning than that of a pebble equally randomly produced.

3. Life is ultimately a tragic fare if there is no God. We live, we suffer, we die -- some horrifically, many prematurely -- and there is only oblivion afterward.

4. Human beings need instruction manuals. This is as true for acting morally and wisely as it is for properly flying an airplane. One's heart is often no better a guide to what is right and wrong than it is to the right and wrong way to fly an airplane. The post-religious secular world claims to need no manual; the heart and reason are sufficient guides to leading a good life and to making a good world.

5. If there is no God, the kindest and most innocent victims of torture and murder have no better a fate after death than do the most cruel torturers and mass murderers. Only if there is a good God do Mother Teresa and Adolf Hitler have different fates.

6. With the death of Judeo-Christian values in the West, many Westerners believe in little. That is why secular Western Europe has been unwilling and therefore unable to confront evil, whether it was Communism during the Cold War or Islamic totalitarians in its midst today.

7. Without God, people in the West often become less, not more, rational. It was largely the secular, not the religious, who believed in the utterly irrational doctrine of Marxism. It was largely the secular, not the religious, who believed that men's and women's natures are basically the same, that perceived differences between the sexes are all socially induced. Religious people in Judeo-Christian countries largely confine their irrational beliefs to religious beliefs (theology), while the secular, without religion to enable the non-rational to express itself, end up applying their irrational beliefs to society, where such irrationalities do immense harm.

8. If there is no God, the human being has no free will. He is a robot, whose every action is dictated by genes and environment. Only if one posits human creation by a Creator that transcends genes and environment who implanted the ability to transcend genes and environment can humans have free will.

9. If there is no God, humans and "other" animals are of equal value. Only if one posits that humans, not animals, are created in the image of God do humans have any greater intrinsic sanctity than baboons. This explains the movement among the secularized elite to equate humans and animals.

10. Without God, there is little to inspire people to create inspiring art. That is why contemporary art galleries and museums are filled with "art" that celebrates the scatological, the ugly and the shocking. Compare this art to Michelangelo's art in the Sistine chapel. The latter elevates the viewer -- because Michelangelo believed in something higher than himself and higher than all men.

11. Without God nothing is holy. This is definitional. Holiness emanates from a belief in the holy. This explains, for example, the far more widespread acceptance of public cursing in secular society than in religious society. To the religious, there is holy speech and profane speech. In much of secular society the very notion of profane speech is mocked.

12. Without God, humanist hubris is almost inevitable. If there is nothing higher than man, no Supreme Being, man becomes the supreme being.

13. Without God, there are no inalienable human rights. Evolution confers no rights. Molecules confer no rights. Energy has no moral concerns. That is why America's Founders wrote in the Declaration of Independence that we are endowed "by our Creator" with certain inalienable rights. Rights depend upon a moral source, a rights giver.

14. "Without God," Dostoevsky famously wrote, "all is permitted." There has been plenty of evil committed by believers in God, but the widespread cruelties and the sheer number of innocents murdered by secular regimes -- specifically Nazi, Fascist and Communist regimes -- dwarfs the evil done in the name of religion.

As noted at the beginning, none of this proves, or even necessarily argues for, God's existence. It makes the case for the necessity, not the existence, of God. "Which God?" the secularist will ask. The God of Israel, the God of America's founders, "the Holy God who is made holy by justice" (Isaiah), the God of the Ten Commandments, the God who demands love of neighbor, the God who endows all human beings with certain inalienable rights, the God who is cited on the Liberty Bell because he is the author of liberty. That is the God being referred to here, without whom we will be vanquished by those who believe in less noble gods, both secular and divine. Written 7 hours ago - Comment - LikeUnlike - Report Note
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Michelle at 5:58pm March 5
Good article. Don't forget to credit the author. :)
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Andrea at 7:19pm March 5
oh yeah I meant to do that... busy busy day here.
author Dennis Prager
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Kellie at 8:08pm March 5
Although I had to look up the word "hubris", I like # 12. I already hear it in the conversations I have had on this topic.
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Andrea at 8:10pm March 5
amen to that sister! (listen to me preaching lol)
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Faithinate at 8:58pm March 5
Oh my word, my head hurts....I will reply...
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Kellie at 9:02pm March 5
ha-ha-ha. Is this round 2 or 3? I am losing count :)
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Faithinate at 9:07pm March 5
Replying to the conclusory paragraph first: God is not necessary. The God of Israel "endows all human beings with certain inalienable rights"? Let's start with the right to life, and talk about the vast numbers of people God condemned to death, EVEN IN THE NEW TESTAMENT. A few examples:

1 Corinthians
- If you defile the temple of God, God will destroy you. 3:17
- Paul claims that God killed 23,000 in a plague for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab 10:8
- If you murmur, you'll be destroyed by the destroyer (God). 10:10
Hebrews
- God will not forgive us unless we shed the blood of some innocent creature. 9:13-14, 22
- Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29
- The Israelites kept the passover and sprinkled blood on doorposts so hat God wouldn't kill their firstborn children (like he did the Egyptians in Exodus 12:29).
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11:28 Faithinate at 9:13pm March 5
That's just for starters, but you get the idea. Even by NT standards, this is not a loving God, but still a bloodthirsty God.

To address something that stands out in EVERY religious discussion I had; whether or not Hitler was an Atheist (I need to find the article explaining his actual beliefs, he did believe in God), his loony ideas and despicable actions in no way reflect a godless society, but rather a very disturbed and overly powerful man who came to power in a desperate place at a desperate time. HE WAS A BLOODY LOONY, HE'S NOT ONE OF US. We've agreed before, Andrea, that in any sufficiently large group, there will be the crackpot end of the spectrum that are capable of doing horrible things. I further posit that ANY philosophy, theology, methodology, given enough time and popularity, can enable mankind's inner demons (so to speak). The question is whether that philosophy etc TENDS TO ENCOURAGE evil behavior. I believe that most major religions do, whereas Atheism.....
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Kellie at 9:15pm March 5
God gives life, but He is the ultimate creator and also has the ability to take away as He deems necessary. Also, we can pick verses out of the Bible all day to lend credence to our own beliefs, just as we could disect each others sentences (completely out of context) to make our own meanings.
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Faithinate at 9:19pm March 5
...and the Atheist movement (can we call it that?) tends to encourage humanity, equality, progress, etc. Does religion do NO good? No, of course not. There's a mission house just up the street that feeds, clothes, and gives medical attention to the homeless. We have that capacity for good in us, and as time goes on I think we will see an increase in "godlessness", and more secular charities and programs.
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But I digress. For #1, I've already discussed how there IS good and evil without gods; you're essentially arguing that we're too stupid to naturally come to the conclusion that you should be kind to kids, you should condemn things like theivery, murder, and rape because you wouldn't want those things to happen to you, etc etc. Humans have evolved, society has evolved, and we can clearly see (even in the Bible) that morals have evolved.
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Kellie at 9:20pm March 5
Hey Jen, I don't think that its major religions that encourage evil behavior, but rather, they are the perfect tool to manipulate people.
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Faithinate at 9:21pm March 5
Put those verses in context, Kellie, and see how many of them come out the exact same way; God condones killing, God metes out eternal punishment (that's a Biblical reference to a very real hell, Andrea!) for nonbelievers, God has again and again ordered the slaughter of entire cities, including women and babies. This isn't picking and choosing, this is your book, and your God. You begin to see why this is upsetting to me.
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Faithinate at 9:26pm March 5
"Without God, there is no objective meaning to life." As an Atheist, I have the joy of making my life mean what I want it to mean. I realize that Xtians have some latitude there, but ultimitely your life is about serving God and going to Heavan. I'll leave it there for now, lots more points to go.

"Life is ultimately a tragic fare if there is no God." Sure, you can think of it that way. There's certainly a lot of suffering; I still say it's better than well more than 9/10 of the population of the Earth burning for all eternity because they believed in Zeus, or Allah, or were born Jewish.

With these two points, you're essentially saying that life's no good if you can't believe in God, much like a child might consider Christmas sucky if there weren't a Santa Clause. Is it really that bad to learn that it was only people all along? Moving right along to...
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Kellie at 9:32pm March 5
Jen, so what do you believe happens after death? Is it just over? This is a serious question, it isn't meant to be sarcastic...
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Faithinate at 9:33pm March 5
"4. Human beings need instruction manuals." We might be able to agree on this, but I gotta say, the Bible is the WORST instruction manual ever. It's uninclusive, contradictory, ambiguous, and filled with cruelty and horrors almost too great to discuss. Talk about cherrypicking; "love thy neighbor", absolutely. But I say again; society evolves, morals evolve. You grow and learn your own personal code. Let's write a new manual, and update it as the times evolve. In Version 1.0, let's be sure to include equality for women, all the races, protection for children, and warnings against unneccessary violence. The heart and reason, and personal reflection in the context of global societal morals, ARE sufficient guides to leading a good life and to making a good world. -----------------------------
Faithinate at 9:36pm March 5
Kellie, I think it's highly likely that there's nothing after death. I like to think that there's so much about the world and universe we don't yet understand, who knows? Maybe an afterlife is possible, but I think the reward/punishment dynamic is so far unlikely as to be nigh well impossible.
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Kellie at 9:44pm March 5
God has the ability to do as He pleases, He is the creator of us all. However, that right is not given to mankind (unless specifically commanded by Him). It has been and always will be abused by some individuals, regardless of what religion or lack of. For Pete's sake, the Catholic church use to sell "salvation" because they wanted more money. These are not acts of God, but rather of man left to his own devices. We can argue religion all day and never have any impact on each others stances. However, I don't think that any of us can argue that mankind is capable of an absurd level of cruelyt and greed.
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Kellie at 9:45pm March 5
I also don't think that we can argue with my amazing gramatical capabilities (seriously, can I spell anything right today :)
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Kellie at 9:47pm March 5
Thanks Jen. I didn't know what an Athiest's beliefs were about death and I never have time to look anything up anymore.
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Kellie at 9:47pm March 5
Goodnight all. Have fun with your conversation.
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Faithinate at 9:51pm March 5
#5 says that we want there to be ultimate justice; while yes, I agree that would be wonderful, it's a fairy tale. Life can be random and cruel, absolutely. The god of the Bible is purposefully cruel, which is infinitely worse. If we're looking to god for justice, why do we need a justice system? We've grown to the point where we have an organized system in the quest for justice; as time goes on, the system will improve worldwide. We'll never make life fair, but it shows the relative sophistication of the human spirit that we make the attempt and put so much weight on justice.

I think #6 shows a very cursory, almost flippant, understanding of Wester European history, and it makes my head hurt to think about trying to address it. The single-cause theory of history is ludicrous, like a single-cause theory of behavioral analysis. My head hurts, ouch. ONWARD!!!
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Faithinate at 9:52pm March 5
Atheists don't have a unified belief in anything, necessarily. We're united by the understanding that gods don't exist. After that, you really have to ask the individual what he/she believes.
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Faithinate at 10:03pm March 5
"Religious people in Judeo-Christian countries largely confine their irrational beliefs to religious beliefs (theology), while the secular, without religion to enable the non-rational to express itself, end up applying their irrational beliefs to society, where such irrationalities do immense harm."

This makes me want to cry. I'm guessing that Christians (or at least the author) thinks that irrational thought is good, as long as it's about God?!

That aside...you express your non-rationality in religion, which NEVER EVER EVER impacts society (WTF??). You believe in an invisible guy in the sky that tells you to hate gays, shun nonbelievers, etc etc. Whereas if I as an atheist want to indulge in the non-rational, I can argue with my husband about whether or not he should bring me flowers because I got the disposal fixed. Or go on a ghost hunt. Or see a freakin' movie, for dog's sake.

Argument, LAAAAAAAME!
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Faithinate at 10:15pm March 5
"8. If there is no God, the human being has no free will." *Sigh* Nice try...you guys were sick of the rest of us saying that the existence of God would mean no free will, eh? Sure, genes can predispose some behavior (you're saying that's not true if you believe in God?) And environment definitely does; otherwise, children of Christian parents would randomly turn out to be Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, etc. from a very young age. Predisposition and environment affect a person, surely, but it doesn't take away free will. People think, grow, change, experience...we're people, we have freedom of choice.

It becomes ridiculous, the things you have to say out loud.
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Faithinate at 10:20pm March 5
"9. If there is no God, humans and "other" animals are of equal value." The joy of having, by an insanely tiny chance, even begun to exist should be quite enough to make you feel special. No? Okay, well, how about being able to write? The ability to use tools, travel internationally, go to space? Not ringing any bells? You seriously can't come up with ANYTHING to say to your kids when (God forbid, hah), they ask you "Hey Mom, am I better than a dog?"

And by the way, I think the Bible devalues animals far too much. They're there for us to eat and use and sacrifice whenever god gets pissy, or hungry, or something. PETA should be secular, if they're not.
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Faithinate at 10:41pm March 5
"10. Without God, there is little to inspire people to create inspiring art." I'm not artist, and already I can think of a myriad of inspiring things that I'd love to paint, or sculpt, or communicate through art. My love for my children (and theirs for me), the incredible beauty of the world and universe, the mysteries of same, the complex relationships of my friends and family, my dreams and goals, on and on and on. Just because a few people made blasphemous or disgusting art pieces, that doesn't invalidate secular art.

So, was Pablo Picasso a religious artist? Most of Manet's career was of non-religious matter. Ditto Monet. Michelangelo was commissioned by the church to do the Sistine Chapel and others, and it is well believed he was gay. There's plenty of beautiful religious art, and plenty more secular.
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Faithinate at 10:41pm March 5
More later, I'm done for tonight. Good times, in all.
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Aimee at 10:55pm March 5
Intersting article. On the whole atheist vs. believers topic, I was very interested to read what the ATheist code (or whatever it was called) was that Nicole posted. I feel these values are much the essence of Christianity-of what Jesus taught. Isn't that ironic?

I don't feel I can argue (nor am I really interested in trying to convince anyone else that feels as passionately as you do Jen)that there is no God, because honestly I'm not that talented. I'm no biblical scholar. However I do find the discussion fascinating from the standpoint of what people that have differing beliefs from me think, feel and believe on this and other topics. I know there is a God. I can't say how, I just do. Of all the things in my life I have been unsure about, my belief in GOd has never been one of them. I am certainly glad I live in a country that protects the rights of atheists and christians, etc. alike. I truly believe that people HAVE be able to choose to believe in God ...
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Faithinate at 11:01pm March 5
It's cool Aimee, I don't have to debate EVERYone :}

So there is a God. Why THIS one? And why do you get to pick and choose which parts of the Bible are relevant, and which ones God thinks it's okay for you to ignore? You don't have to answer, I just want you to think about it.

And I agree; I think it's wonderful, and we're very lucky, to live in a country where you and I can beleive whatever we damn well want to and talk about it when/wherever we want. Incredible, wonderful.Aimee at 11:04pm March 5
or not in order to have a personal relationship with him. It is funny even to myself how much faith I have that there is a God because I grew up with a Catholic mom who still holds fast to the thinking that she's a Catholic and how important that is based on two things #1 her devotion to her Catholic mom and #2 the guilt she was raised with in the church. Honestly, she's a Catholic in word much more than deed. I would say she is a Christian, by deed for sure. We went to church sporadically, I don't think I ever heard my mom pray to God other than the prayers you are taught in Catholic church, etc. I don't attend church regularly although I don't think it is a bad idea to do so. I don't take the bible word for word, for the most part. I just think of it as a guidebook to life written by man, therefore some parts I think of as more a product of the times in which it was written. I don't believe the Bible is to be worshipped. I'm not really religious but I am deeply spiritual.Aimee at 11:10pm March 5
It seems to me (and I am counting on you setting me straight here it I am interpreting this wrong, Jen.) that most of your problems lie with religion. Do you see God and religion as the same?

An Jesus Christ (that "some invisible guy in the sky") does not tell me to hate anyone nor to shun anyone. It is quite the opposite. Jesus spent his adult life embracing those that were being shunned.

I can tell you why I get to pick which parts are relevent and which parts to ignore...because He gave the me free will to do so just as He has given you the free will to not believe in Him. I may be right and I may be wrong in being so picky-choosy, but for now & where I am in my journey, this IS what I do. -----------------------------
Faithinate at 12:22am March 6
"most of your problems lie with religion." Sure, I'd say that's accurate, especially since I don't believe in God, or god, or gods. I don't have a problem with God any more than I have a problem with Allah, or Ra, or angry purple unicorns. You can't be pissed off at a concept (not rationally anyway). God is not the same as religion, God is the concept around which religion is based. I think religion causes a lot of problems; I think God is ridiculously unlikely.

Jesus is your friend, your savior, your personal messiah, right? And he's perfect, he's everything you'd want in a friend/savior. He listens to everything you have to say, knows everything about you, loves you unconditionally, would (and has) give his very life for you. And there's a book about him (several, in fact, bound into one), but only some of it applies, and the deciding factor in what applies and in what doesn't is your existing moral code and intuition. If we changed the word "Jesus" for "talking goat" or
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Faithinate at 12:28am March 6
"leprachaun", then we'd call it an interesting fantasy life (for a kid) or a delusion (for an adult). Why does everything about Him get to be completely subjective? Why does the OT not count for some people? Why do people get to interpret passages any which way they want to? That's not religion, that's art.

Jesus shunned...here are 2 examples from Matthew (there are lots more): Jesus tells his disciples to keep away from the Gentiles and Samaritans, and go only to the Israelites. 10:5-6

Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15
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Faithinate at 12:29am March 6
There's lots more at http://skepticsannotatedbible.com

Anyway, I know you didn't want a big debate, just replying. And I can't stress enough that I don't...necessarily...MIND that you guys believe in God. You have different experiences and different mindsets. But little of it makes sense to me.

Peoples is Peoples

The politics of religion/atheism aren't as simple as, say, the politics of the ocean. Either THAT guy is going to eat you, or he isn't (in which case you might eat him). But I haven't figured out exactly where to stand with respect to the others in the a/theo sea.

On the one hand, "some of my best friends are..." whatever: Catholic, pagan, Christian. And they're people. Clearly very good and wonderful and fiercely intelligent people, to be friends with me. And I've been around and in faith. I know the good that can come of it, the charity, the comfort and community and so on. You can be a Christian and make your life better because of it. I think, I THINK I believe that.

And on the other hand, religion is ludicrous. It's an antique. It's mindbogglingly, horrifically stupid and bad, and causes bad things. It's not just the headlines - pedophile priests, kidnapped crackers, exorcisms - it's also the day to day. You can't convince me that teaching children and adults to ignore evidence in favor of something that makes you feel better about death...is a GOOD IDEA. It's not a positive life skill, not something I'm gonna slip in there along with how the washing machine works, or that you shouldn't get married before you finish college.

So. Religious people are people. And I love and respect some of them. And they're following a broken model which causes poor thinking and a host of other problems, even on the low end of the spectrum. How the fuck do you resolve that?

I Like Jesus with Cheese

This is a post I've bee meaning to write for quite some time. In fact I've been planning this since Fathinate first told me that this happened. So what am I talking about... why the ficious Catholic cracker kidnapping incident, of course!!

So if you're unsure of which incident I'm speaking, here are some links with which you can amuse yourself.

http://www.wftv.com/news/16798008/detail.html

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/its_a_goddamned_cracker.php

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/fight_back_against_bill_donohu.php

OK, now if those don't whet your whistle then nothing will.

Now onto business. I think PZ (2nd link) said it best when he called these people a bunch of fuckwits. This issue is not only what's wrong religion, it's what's wrong with this country and this world. If you assholes honestly think that a thumbnail sized store-bought cracker is more important than a human life then you really need to be kicked off this planet.
I'm getting so fucking sick of these exclusionary groups that are nothing more than cheap excuses for hate.

I'm actually mostly at a loss for words. I never thought I would ever have to tell someone that a cracker doesn't actually turn into flesh.

I was actually talking to a Catholic friend of mine today who was in shock as well. He thinks it's common sense that the whole communion thing is merely symbolic. And I'm sure when pressed behind closed doors, even the Pope would agree that it's all bullshit. He doesn't honestly believe that eating crackers he waved his hand over will turn into actual flesh. And besides... that's just fucking gross. I used to take communion all the time and I stopped because I kept getting the foreskin. Oh wait... Jesus was a Jew... I guess it was nutsack. Anyway, the problem is you never know which portion of the flesh is in your cracker. Did you get the elbow, the eyeball, the intestine, a ball of hair, the inside of the colon, a wad of semen, or... well you get the idea.

I'm making light of this very serious situation because it's just so ridiculous I feel the need to fight ridiculous fire with ridiculous fire.

And now I'm gonna put on my monster face.
Listen you ignorant asswipes... I don't care what stupid shit you wanna feed your kids, but don't force it on the rest of us. If you're so in love with your goddamn crackers then go buy a whole stack of them and build a statue of Jesus. If you're going to kill someone over a single cracker, or even over an entire truckload of crackers then you're seriously fucked in the head.
And just because you believe that a that a guy kidnapped a cracker because 2 thousand years ago a snake talked a woman into eating an apple, that doesn't mean that we have to respect it. And it doesn't mean we have to live by it, or tiptoe around it, or lose our jobs or our lives over it. Keep your fairies to yourself.

Because we tolerate your religion doesn't mean we have to tolerate everything you do. I tolerate my children playing loudly while I'm trying to work, but that doesn't mean I have to tolerate them blowing airhorns in my ear. You religious nuts have had it too good for too long. Gone are the days when you can say believe in god or I'll kill you. Now you have to ask nicely and convince us that you're not completely full of shit and it's a lot harder. Only you slip into your old tricks now and then by fucking with some innocent guy over a fucking cracker or by having a policeman fired for marching in a gay pride parade. These are your new crusades. You're still nothing but bullies and murders only you're not allowed to actually kill anybody anymore. But given half a chance, you'd do it in a heartbeat. Well, we're tired of it and we're not going to put up with it anymore. The right to practice religion and to worship dry, shitty crackers is protected in this country. And so is NOT eating dry, shitty crackers and speaking in tongues. We have every bit as much right to not believe in fairies as you have to believe in them, and YES, having someone fired for that belief or killing someone for it is just the same as them having you fired for your beliefs.

All you assholes are intolerant; you're bullies; you're exclusionary; you're bigots; and your actions are completely unacceptable.

We're done putting up with your childish antics. Come into the adult world and join the human race.

Lazy, Lazy, Lazy - More good links

More links. I've just been introduced to The Skeptics Annotated Bible, which has already done all the work of pointing out the worst Bible passages (and categorizing them...this is a really, really well put-together site). And, The Brick Testament, in which Bible stories are done in Legos.

Edit: A VERY interesting article, linked from RichardDawkins.net, on "Why Muslim women who are oppressed by their families are often reluctant to break free".

Prayers, rewritten

That scene from Firefly of River rewriting the Bible is one of the things making me think about the things people say to God - prayer - and what it really means. So let's take an example of a simple prayer that any random American Christian might make any day of the week, say at a casual Bible study (I've heard hundreds and made dozens like it over the years):

Dear Lord, we praise You and thank You for this day, for our health and for this fellowship. Thank You for guiding us all here safely tonight, and we pray that You will bless us and see us safe back to our homes again.

Lord, please open our hearts so that we may hear Your message here tonight, and go out to be a beacon for Your Holy Word.

We pray for Lia Ashton, Father, and ask that You bring her up out of bankruptcy. Bless her and her family, and lead her to a good job.

Lord, we also pray for Tim Stife tonight. We ask that you will lay Your healing hands on Him and bring him back to good health, if it by Your will.

All this we ask in Jesus' name, Amen.

Wow, that was kind of creepy...I haven't composed a prayer in years now. We're omitting some fairly standard pleas to guide the president, protect military personnel in war zones, and generally save the nation. We gotta start small here.

• "Dear Lord, we praise You" - This never makes sense to me. I praise my dog, but I never say "I praise you, Rover". You say "good dog, Rover". So instead of constantly SAYING "Praise God", shouldn't you stick with "God is great, God is cool, thanks Lord...you're the best!!" I know they do that too, but "praise God!" is SO common. Drives me nuts.
  
  
• "thank You for this day...health and for this fellowship" -Thanks for now - I guess you're just happy to exist, sure-sure - but is God DIRECTLY responsible for your current health? Shouldn't He get the blame when you're sick? "Fuck, Lord, why did you have to give me the runs today?? You're a SUCKY God." As for fellowship: Thanks for an excuse to hang out with my friends, because Lord knows (ha!) we couldn't have gone bowling or something.
  
  
• Getting there and back - Same thing as praying for health. If He's responsible for your safety minute to minute, He should get some pretty pissy prayers when shit goes wrong. And if not, you're just saying you HOPE no one flips their Hummer on the way back.
  
  
• blessings - Praying for the Lord to "bless us" seems like a cheat to me, like rubbing a rabbit's foot every morning on general principles. Bless us. Just whatever good shit pops into Your mind today, you can give that to me (instead of, say, some welfare mother or a starving African kid with HIV).
  
  
• "open our hearts" - I can't tell you HOW many times I've heard that, "Lord, open our hearts". They're mildly insinuating that if you don't buy whatever is thrown out there, you have failed God, or at least you're not relying on God, which is terrible. You WILL be assimalated. And you gotta be a beacon, or at least a light that's NOT under a bushel (Matthew 5:15, Mark 4:21, Luke 11:33)
  
  
• Praying to change people's lives / bless them in specific ways - This is one of SurferJesus' pet peeves (if you can call it that). So, Lia has bad luck (WTF, God?) or mishandles her finances, and she's facing bankruptcy / repo / foreclosure. The Lord's gonna fix it. How? By getting her a good job. How? Well, Lia goes out and applies to a zillion places plus four temp agencies, goes on 7 interviews and studies her ass off to pass 3 different kinds of exams. And then she gets a job offer. What, exactly, did God do? If, say, he nudged somebody (I call messing with free will!) to give Lia the job over another candidate, He's deliberately fucking up THAT guy's life.
  
  
• healing hands - Why do we have to ask for healing hands in the first place? Why are you waiting till we ask for you to do something about it? The guy had a fuckin heart attack. "Healing hands" can only mean (a) You miraculously cure the guy of a heart condition and blocked arteries (I call magic!), or (b) You let nature and modern medicine take their course (I call shenanigans!).
  
  This brings me to another point: Petition prayer. Somewhere it's written (no, it's not) that the more people you get to pray for a certain something, the more likely God is to pay attention, or change his mind. Or maybe there's a scale for certain things: 10 prayers equals a raise, 1,000 gets you healed from the flu, and with 10,000 you can pick between the goldfish or the giant Snoopy doll. Is prayer currency?
  
  
• "if it be Your will" - Man oh man. If it was his fucking WILL, he would've done it then, wouldn't he? You're just saying "Do what you wanna do, God...you're smarter than us. Having said that, we'd REALLY like blah blah blah..."
  
  
• "All this we ask in Jesus' name, Amen." - This, now...this is the magic password that opens the vault of divine favors (John 14:13, John 16:23-24). "God, gimme a pony. I ask in Jesus' name, Amen."
  

If it's any solace (and it kind of isn't...you're still talking to your invisible friend and expecting a reaction), some Christians are preaching against this sort of thing too. Well, that's certainly a start.

So let's finish this off with the above prayer translated from Christian to Normal:):

Dear God, you're totally cool. Thanks for making us and not making us sick and giving us an excuse to hang out together. I'm glad I got here without crashing; I sure hope I get home without crashing too.

Everybody better listen up tonight, because we're talking about the Bible and we SUCK if we don't believe in that. Oh yeah, and we need to tell people about what we learned or they'll go to hell and it's partly our fault. We suck.

As we're sure You know, Lia blew her money on weight-loss products and road trips, and then got fired for telling the customers about her last pap smear. She needs a job, so, like, posess some hiring manager or something and hire her. And do something nice for her family, because we thought about it and asked nicely.

Tim's bypass was okay, but miracles are cooler, so get on that too. Please. I mean, if you feel like it and were gonna do it anyway. Why am I asking?

And for all of the above, the password is "Billy Crystal sent me". Giggity.

---

Mal: (kneeling at altar, in disguise) "Dear Buddha: please bring me a pony, and a plastic rocket-"

Dan Savage on God

I'm a big Dan Savage fan, and I loved what he had to say on a few famliar topics (here's the full article):

Homos are marrying in California as of this week (congrats to all), and should a tornado—or an earthquake or a meteor or the Incredible Hulk—flatten, say, San Francisco's City Hall during a big gay wedding, respected leaders of the religious right will rush to cable broadcast studios to insist that the tornado/earthquake/meteor/Hulk was God's divine judgment, His righteous wrath, the Baby Jesus's latest temper tantrum, wocka wocka wocka.

"I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing," said the Rev. John Hagee, John McCain's ex-BFF, when asked about Hurricane Katrina, which struck New Orleans just before a "massive homosexual rally," a/k/a an annual street party called Southern Decadence, was supposed to take place in the French Quarter. "I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the Day of Judgment. And I believe that Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans."

And God got His way: By drowning all those little old ladies in their attics in the Ninth Ward, God prevented that massive gay rally—for one year.

So how does a douchebag like Hagee explain away the tragedy in Iowa last week? A tornado struck a Boy Scout camp, killing four and injuring scores more, and the Scouts are famously anti-gay and anti-atheist. Well, we need only consult the same interview with Rev. Hagee to learn the answer: While all natural phenomena represent God's "permissible will," says Hagee, "it is wrong to say that every natural disaster is the result of sin . . . . No man on Earth knows the mind of God."

See how that works? Not every natural disaster is the result of sin, you see, because sometimes natural disasters happen to us, not just to them—and when they happen to us, well, the Lord sure moves in mysterious ways, and no man on Earth knows the mind of God. But let a natural disaster strike San Francisco this week, next week, or ever again, and Rev. Hagee will be able to read the mind of God like it was a large-print edition of Highlights for Children.

And Jan. My dear Jan...Isn't God gorgeous?

For those of you who haven't seen the Very Brady Sequel:

Roy: Marcia. Oh, Marcia, Marcia, Marcia. You have grown up to be so gorgeous!
Marcia: I know.
Roy: And Jan. My dear Jan... Isn't Marcia gorgeous?

I’m rereading the forward to "I Sold My Soul on Ebay". It's still amazing to me the misunderstanding Christians have about atheists. "It takes great faith to stare at a sunset, to hear a symphony in full swing, to watch a young child take her first steps, and not see something divine." It doesn't take faith NOT to believe in God, it takes the overcoming of superstition. You may as well say, it certainly takes a lot of faith to see the intricate frost on a window and not see the work of winter fairies. Well, actually, no. It is superb, it is supremely good, it is wonderful, and makes me feel joyous. But there is nothing that intrinsically links something wonderful to someone imaginary.

I'm not even close to being the first that's said this, but it's really annoying that God gets all the credit for things that are just as (if not more) wonderful on their own - either as natural occurrences or as a product of humankind. Watching my children grown and prosper is amazing, and I am indeed filled with wonder that my gorgeous baby, who came from a microscopic beginning, will be taller than I am in a few years. I experience "divine" joy from sunsets and forests, a deep wonder when I look into the intelligent eyes of a gorilla or elephant. I am moved by acts of kindness - like today at the pool, when two strangers jumped to my young son's aid as he panicked.

But I do not have to struggle, and rely heavily on antireligious faith, to un-believe in God. Why can't life just be wonderful sometimes?

Action Figures?

Why, tell me WHY, do the Deluxe Miracle Jesus and the Talking Jesus Doll amuse me so? Thanks, Friendly Atheist.

BTW, I'm reading FA's book, "I Sold My Soul on Ebay". It's actually directed at Christians, and I think it's a fine read. Starting and finishing it today. But first, and without irony, Hell's Kitchen.

Speaking in Tongues

Let me begin with an aside: We were talking this weekend about why we're down on Christianity in particular. I mean, Judaism and Islam and Buddhism are - if not equally ridiculous - at least more or less equally worthy of dissection. And there comes a simple answer: I live in the freaking Bible Belt. I don't have cause to be annoyed by Jews and Muslims and Buddhists very often, if ever. But Christians, man...I have 10+ Christian churches of differing denominations WITHIN A MILE OF MY HOUSE, and seven of these within a quarter mile of my house. We're goddam surrounded.

Anyway. Tadpole and I were talking today about etymology and linguistics, and how "language" and "tongue" can mean the same thing. She says, Oh, like in my Mom's church when they're "speaking in tongues..."

Hold the phone. "What? They speak tongues in your mom's church?" Affirmative. Oh, my. That amuses the hell out of me. So I've been doing a little reading. First off, Wikipedia tells me that

Glossolalia is commonly called "speaking in tongues". ... speaking in tongues is the vocalizing of fluent speech-like but unintelligible utterances, often as part of religious practice. Its use (including use in this article) sometimes also embraces Xenoglossy - speaking in a natural language that was previously unknown to and that is not understood by the speakers common in black cultures.

Here's a bit from Christianity Today, which has the general feel that yeah, we think it's weird too, but whadyagonnado?

The phenomenon of tongues (or glossolalia) is identified by many as the supernatural utterance of foreign human languages (Acts 2:4,6); others contend that it includes speaking an angelic language (1 Corinthians 13:1) or some other verbal expression requiring interpretation . For many years, speaking in tongues was seen as the distinguishing characteristic of the Pentecostal and charismatic traditions within the church. Some Pentecostal Christians, in particular, laid heavy emphasis on speaking in tongues as "initial evidence" of baptism in the Spirit.

And here's another:

Speaking in tongues has been controversial among Christians, with some thinking it is not an appropriate modern-day practice despite its use in biblical times. The Southern Baptist Convention's International Mission Board adopted a policy last year forbidding the consideration of missionary candidates who use a "private prayer language."

Not appropriate despite use in Biblical times? I thought it was a gift of God, a sign that you've been double baptised. Are you saying it's voluntary? Controllable? HMMMmmm. Seems kinda silly if you're doing it on purpose.

Here I'm searching through YouTube...there are plenty of vids on "speaking in tongues", but they range from confused revival melees to how to guides to a guy who filmed himself speaking in tongues for demonstrative purposes, but only after boring the shit out of you for over 7.5 minutes first (notice how nicely I *DIDN'T* make fun of his creepy wal-eye?)

Going back to the Wiki article: the Apostle Paul talks about speaking in tongues...don't forbid it, it's great, I do it all the time, everybody should do it. Wait, what are we talking about? Oh yeah, not SEX, certainly not. We're talking about speaking in tongues. So anyway, he "indicates in the church more value is found in understandable teaching so that the church may receive edifying, saying that with speaking in tongues, only the individual is edified (1 Cor 14:18-19). Paul discourages simultaneous speaking in tongues in the presence of unbelievers or the unlearned" - ya fuckin THINK? - "believers are to prophecy and be understood rather than speak unintelligibly."

I guess this all comes down, once again, to how ridiculous all this is. Buy now, and you'll not only get the love of an invisible, inaudible being, and the big outdated book of how to live your life, but also the ability to babble incomprehensibly so you can feel good about yourself and alienate those close to you!

Caveat emptor, huh kids?

Is anything too ridiculous?

Do you think there is ever a point where a devout Christian says to him or herself, "Now wait a minute...this is too weird even for me. WTF?"

Having said that, I give you this post from "Debunking Christianity", with this most wonderful of all possible phrases:

In the end, it was Charroux who “won” the battle of the foreskins...

But seriously. At any point, over these hundreds of years, did anyone say "Oh hang on, this is fucking silly. Christ's leftover penis skin?" Hell, I can't even get my kids' ultrasound photos into their (blank) baby books...I'm having a hard time believing Mary preserved her son's foreskin and passed it on to others.

That aside, I go back to the main point. You're trying to discover the one true FORESKIN? What kind of blessing do you think would be conferred on you if you were to visit the shrine of such a relic and kneel there? (Sorry, kneeling at a foreskin, way too easy....)

I wonder if we could find the one true lock of Jesus' hair from his first haircut. I have snippets from my daughter and son...I bet Mary slipped a few hairs into a baggie. Or maybe a little vial of blood, like that actor (was that Billy Bob Thorton that did that?) Or a jar of toenail clippings like the kid on American Idol. It would really benefit the Christian (especially Catholic) world most if Jesus was some kind of creepy obsessive-compulsive bio-packrat, with stone jars filled with tears, sweat, ballhairs, whatever...

Christ, guys, get a grip. His FORESKIN?

Stupid Shit People Tell Their Kids

So Tadpole says to us, "I know you'll think this is stupid, but my Mom says God protects us from choking ourselves by making us pass out."

I don't need to go into this actual argument, but it reminds me forcibly of almost every Christian I've ever met, both in the sense of "holy shit, WHY do people tell their kids such stupid things?" And, in the more general sense that religion really seems to allow people to use the grab bag approach to life: anything I get my hands on is fair game, anything I say must be true.

Dawkins and Michael Shermer (and many others I'm sure) comment on this in their books. Religion not only approves of but encourages and REQUIRES its members to believe in arbitrary, unproveable ideas. They not only believe whatever was voted into a certain set of books a few hundred years ago, and what their "experts" tell them, but whatever enters their minds too.

And people wonder why I'm so venemous about religion.

Kids say the goddamdest things...

Understand, first off, that our kid isn't crude in her language. So, SJ showed Tadpole a piece of Richard Dawkins' lecture at the 2007 AAI Conference, and was talking about how religion stifles curiosity. They were going through different things on how Christians think, like Why do sheepdogs look like that? God... And SJ says, "Why do we die?" She says, "Because you pissed God off."

Ha...our girl...

Gay Marriage, Christian Bigotry

I went looking for Christian blogs and comments. Know thy enemy, right? I'm actually so sad I don't know where to begin.

Why does being a Christian mean swallowing the whole thing, hook line and sinker? And by the whole thing, I mean everything the xtian higher ups pick and choose out of the bible. God made Adam and Even, be fruitful and multiply, etc etc. But we don't bother about stoning witches and all that. Though, creepily enough, one commentator brought that up:

God's word is clear and this type of marriage should not be allowed. However, the old testament practice of putting them to death right now is not an option. How can anyone come to know Jesus once they are dead?

Ok, so you're willing to forgo one part of the Bible in hopes that fags will accept Jesus. How screwed up is that?

"you can see why the Homosexuals would love this to become legal, because then they can slowly but surely enact equal rights and benefits for their mates." As always, you make the simplest things sound so SINISTER. Oh my GOD, if they can get MARRIED then they'll slink their stealthy way into us TREATING THEM like they're married. OMFG!! *ahem* I think it's part of the point, dude.

About the point that God made man and woman to make babies, and fags can't make babies...why then aren't Christians horribly up in arms about straight men and women who choose not to procreate? By this logic, Surfer Jesus' and my siblings are just as horrible and god-hating as all those California fags, because none of them have been knocked up. (Ironic to think that SJ and I are more "godly" in that sense than others, eh?) If it must be legislated that marriage is for a man and a woman, then it should also be legislated that men and women who get married MUST procreate. Be fruitful and multiply; God directly commands it. Better legislate it, too. If you don't, this also "constitutes yet another blatant slap in His face".

And we've talked about this a LOT recently, but it gets me yet again:

Issues such as this one make me very thankful to know we do not have to endure this much longer. As the world spins toward its certain appointment with destruction; we look to the heavens from which our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will soon appear. Just as God saved Lot and his family from the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, so God will save us from the certain destruction of this evil world through the soon appearing of His Son. Praise God.

Geez, how ungrateful can you get?

Lord, thank you for this beautiful world, my life, my wife and children, my You-appointed dominion over the creatures of the land sea and air. Please, Lord, bring it to an end at your earliest possible convenience. Amen. "This evil world", indeed.

And to end on a positive note: "psalmthirtyseven" actually seems to have a bit of sense. You know, for a Christian.

AOTD chain: Holy Potato, Batman!

Berlin family finds 'holy potato'

Berliner Morgenpost is calling [it] "the miracle of Berlin-Charlottenburg."

"Everyone was deeply stirred," Balta told the paper. "Some of them even began to weep and to pray."

:|

The couple's son has set up a blog dedicated to the potato, which White said the family may sell on eBay.

Totally interesting to me that they only mention at the END of the article that the woman's a Muslim.

This pointed to: Leftists disrupt Christian youth festival in Bremen

A traditional Christian youth festival in Germany faced unprecedented disruptions by leftists who hacked the gathering's website, interrupted speeches and threw beer bottles at visitors, organizers said on Tuesday. [They] found themselves under siege by leftist extremists determined to protest what they saw as Christian intolerance to homosexuality and abortion.

Heh. The festival is called "Christival". Heh.

Also: Vandals target Munich's first gay maypole. I'm sorry, I just can't help sniggering at "gay maypole". Heheheheh.

And finally, Captian Obvious writes: 'Celebration of nudity' opposed by Church